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Alternative- Currency Hedge
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subrosa



Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 799

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:08 pm    Post subject: Alternative- Currency Hedge Reply with quote

Seen at fundalarm:

http://www.indexuniverse.com/printer.php?id=1420

interest/thoughts?
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ben



Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 1434
Location: The world is not enough

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well - it is basically interest rate arbitrage (where one borrows in the cheap interest currency and buys in the high interest currency) and does some hedgefund- style things. It could be an interesting diversification tool but I would need to see it "in action" before I give my verdict. Betting on currencies is even harder than on equities due to pride/politics Etc. involved. Expenses and dramatic currency swings can kill that return rather quickly. Cheers!
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bpp



Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't this a bet against interest rate parity?

Bpp
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ben



Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 1434
Location: The world is not enough

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bpp;yes that is how i see it. my previous post was a bit unclear sorry. Cheers!
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bpp



Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ben,

If it is a bet against interest rate parity, and if interest rate parity holds (as I belive studies indicate), then this fund should systematically lose money over the long term...

Bpp
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subrosa



Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 799

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If it is a bet against interest rate parity, and if interest rate parity holds (as I belive studies indicate), then this fund should systematically lose money over the long term...


You may well be right about the funds real world prospects.

However I think that even if parity holds in general, or overall, there may be occasional deviations; if you can reliably predict the deviations from parity, you might trade profitably.

At least some studies show support for an association between the high yielding currency and subsequent currency appreciation, which is a bit different than what comprehensive parity theories would predict, right? If so... yield might be usable to forcast anomolous returns.

At least I think that is what this proposed ETF is trying to exploit. Worked well in backtest per the link... but don't all anomolies look good in backtest?
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bpp



Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

subrosa wrote:
At least some studies show support for an association between the high yielding currency and subsequent currency appreciation, which is a bit different than what comprehensive parity theories would predict, right?


It is the exact opposite of what interest rate parity would predict. Well, interest rate parity (as I understand it) means that the higher the interest rate available in a currency, the lower the forward prices on that currency are relative to spot. So, you can't improve on the riskless return available in one currency by buying a higher-yielding currency and simultaneously selling forward contracts on it. Which means that the futures markets generally expect higher-yielding currencies to go down relative to lower-yielding currencies.

This ETF should only make money on average if the futures markets are systematically wrong about the direction of currency movements. Which seems like it would be a surprising result, but what do I know. Maybe there are some institutional hedging reasons for this to be the case or something.

Bpp
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lazyday



Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe some of you can understand this better than I:

http://www.investorsinsight.com/otb_print.aspx

Quote:
In simple words, the exchange rate's best forecaster was the forward market. But starting in 1995, the relationship broke down. Basically, anyone who borrowed Yen to invest in dollars, or, in other words, paid the Yen interest rates and received the US$ interest rates, would today be up +50%, despite the fact the Yen spot rate is roughly were it was 11 years ago.

Quote:
The growing ease of financing in cheap interest rates, wherever they may lay (today in Japan, tomorrow in Europe?)

Quote:
, companies, financiers, high net worth individuals... are able to finance themselves at the cheap rate (which, today, is in Yen) and continue to prosper on the carry trade...
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bpp



Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if I can claim to really understand it, but yikes. I have been kind of wondering when all this money printing by the BOJ was going to come home to roost. The separation of the exchange rate from the futures prediction from 1995 is quite...impressive.

As far as the new ETF goes, it looks like it is exploiting this anomaly created by the BOJ: the ETF is based on back-testing from 1993, and the BOJ started their quantitative easing policy in 1995. Now that the BOJ is ending their quantitative easing policy, it seems like it would be the exact wrong time to get into this ETF. Unless some other central bank decides to play the same trick starting now.

Bpp
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subrosa



Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 799

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now that the BOJ is ending their quantitative easing policy, it seems like it would be the exact wrong time to get into this ETF.


This is my worry, and certainly wouldn't be the first time real world trumps backtest data.
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Greg



Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 498
Location: MN

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a related article from John Mauldin about Japanese liquidity flows. It might be helpful in your thinking. I still believe we print way too much money too:

http://www.investorsinsight.com/otb.aspx
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redmoon



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Wonka land

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Greg. Just curious, why do follow this Mauldin character so closely? Does he really have any credibility other than being a contrarian of sorts?
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Greg



Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 498
Location: MN

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redmoon: I think he's one of the smartest characters in the business of financial/monetary analysis and market trends. He brings up topics that if I haven't thought about I should. He clarifies them and puts them in context. He is also, to my mind, very cautious and keeps ideas presented separate from what he sells (hedge funds)--somewhat. Bullseye Investing was where I found out about the actual demographic problems that will be faced by this country and western democracies in general. Things are a lot worse now than when I read his book. He talks about why index fund buying may be a problem in the future, etc. Every week I read him, step back for a couple days, and read him again. It's been worth it to me--so far. I do think his "muddle thru" declaration is tied to his livelihood though. Him, Hussman, and the Pimco bunch all the time. Everyone else is optional. Oh, the Magambo Guru to scare the bejezus out of me on Wednesdays.

These guys are the canaries in the coal mine to me. They seem to be focused on the correct things, the ones that determine whether stocks or bonds go up or down and the macro-monetary events that cause this.

Indexing and rebalancing is a form of timing no matter what anyone says. I'm trying to refine my skills enough to get out generally near the tops and in near bottoms. A modest goal to my mind. I do not see a steady growth of 2-3% in western economies for the next 30 years, my probable lifetime. I see increasing volatility and a neccesity of draining the whole pool of financial products down to rational size and rational behavior before that steady-state or slightly improving state happens again. Or just one big dump. Very Happy Right now I'm looking forward to a 10-15% drop in the market within the next month or two.
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redmoon



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Wonka land

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kind of track record does he have out of curiousity? Right half the time, most, or what? If he hits the big calls he is worth his weight in gold, no pun intended.

I suppose I would prefer a guy like Hussman who maintains market exposure until his technicals tell him otherwise - thus hedging. Not bad, a little balanced approach to both worlds.

Sigh....I am going back to my boring stock/index funds Laughing but I am with you in theory my man.

You want to really get scared, get on some of those peak oil forums. You will begin to believe your future life will be living out of a box and eating mayo sandwiches Laughing
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Greg



Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 498
Location: MN

PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redmoon: Mauldin makes zero specific predictions that I know of. He just highlights possible trends. He does recommend lots of hedge funds though. If I was to invest in one, I would tend to trust him more than a hedge fund solicitor off the street.

I've been reviewing my own portfolio in the context of putting money into foreign equities and discovered that, separate from Hussman, I've arrived at a portfolio that mildly mimics his. I certainly don't have all my equities covered by puts but a significant portion are protected by RYDEX double downs. He mentioned last week that a 20% gold position is a "moderate" allocation for him. I'm getting close. And the duration on his bonds is now pushed out from 2 to about 2.5. I bought some AOF a few months back which extended my duration slightly, just about matching him. This whole thing sort of confirms to me that I am starting to think a little like him, see some of the things he may be seeing, although what he does is primarily technical in nature. Unless we're both wrong. Then I'm in real trouble Shocked .

Maybe you and I and Capt. America and our wives can start a hippie commune powered by methane if we're on the shady side of the oil bell curve Laughing Laughing
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